Suboxone Or Opiate W/d

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Posted

What's up everyone just trying to get some opinions. Which is harder to withdraw from perks or subs.and any opinions that have helped u in the past deal with either one would b appreciated thanks

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Posted

Twiggy...how much you're taking, how long you've taken them, tolerance, need, etc...all this plays into an answer...if you want to expand upon your question with some of this info I'm sure someone would be willing to assist you with either medical wisdom or personal experience...

FG

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Posted

subs a nightmare period

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Posted

My friend changed from a 'done clinic to a sub program and they took her from 4 x 4 mg to 3 x 4 mg after two weeks. They are supposed to be through, off all of it, in about 6 months. Depending on the dose it may take less time.

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Posted

trust me its better to have a dr that perscribes done than subs

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Posted

done is harder to get off than subs, im going threw that nightmare right now managed to get down to 65ml of juice from 100ml over a few months but im going into withdrawal every morning until i get to chemist.

when i was only on the subs 5year ago i didnt really find it that hard of a reduction just ate a hell of alot of vlum and got really stoned took my mind of things.
ive never had problem with perks you dont really see much of them in the UK.

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Posted

do you's get the done in tablet form or in the green liquid when on perscription??

the uk wont perscribe the tablets due to the fact people were crushing them n would then i.v which led too alot of deaths

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Posted

I've done the subs for short periods ( a week or two).  The way they feel in my system creeps me out.  I would advise staying away completely from subs.    

Better to use a long on set, long lasting benzo like clorazepate -- for a short time.   The benzo w/d can be worse than the opiates if you let it go on too long.

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Posted

trust me its better to have a dr that perscribes done than subs

Trust me, I believe you feel that way but doubt it would be in the majority of opinions. I have never had either of them so my opinion is just drawn from reading the thoughts of others. The people I know personally, and what I have read from others experience, makes me think 'done is something that takes a long time for WD symptoms to pass. At least when compared to other opiates. Subs have only relatively recently been used for treatment as far as I know. My nephew was able to use subs to get off an I~V habit in a few months.

 

Although I'm sure there are different approaches depending on the clinic and other factors but, at far as I know, none of the clinics around here use 'done to help people quit completely. Some use subs in a maintenance program too, but others use it as a way to wean people off opiates altogether. 

 

As FG said at the beginning, it's something that needs requires information for anyone to truly be able to offer the best advice for this person. Without knowing more, and having no personal experience with subs, all I can so is offer my best wishes.

 

@ BeZapper - I could be wrong but I've seen every habit forming medicine in the world referred to as the worst thing ever to WD from. I've began to think the worst thing a person can WD from is the last thing they had to. Fortunately I've only had to get off trams and oh~seas. They both had the same symptoms, except trams had brain shocks to go with the other problems. So, IME, trams were the worst. 

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Posted

 

@ BeZapper - I could be wrong but I've seen every habit forming medicine in the world referred to as the worst thing ever to WD from. I've began to think the worst thing a person can WD from is the last thing they had to. Fortunately I've only had to get off trams and oh~seas. They both had the same symptoms, except trams had brain shocks to go with the other problems. So, IME, trams were the worst. 

 

Good point there HT.  If I gave up the caffine habbit, that would suddenly be the worst of my addition problems.  Caffine, in fact, is about the only one I have never been able to kick!  It just doesn't produce the same level of desperation that the other do (thankfully).

If the subs worked from someone, then hail to the subs!  I've even used them successfully myself. 

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Posted

Here's the deal with Subs - when you go on 'done its in an institutional manner.  They treat you like you've done something wrong and not like you need to recover from an illness.   As a result there is no incentive for the patient or institution to get the patient off 'done.   The whole idea when Sub was approved in 2003 for Opiate Medication-Assisted therapy was to buy people time to straighten out their lives, something you really can't do on a 'done  program.   The idea with Subs is that the patient is in a state of remission - no withdrawal, no high and most of all, no cravings as long as the dose is right.  Once stabilized the patient visits the doctor just like any other patient, a diabetic, etc.   Once a month the patient gets a prescription for a month's supply of Sub.  During this time the concept works as long as the patient works on the problems that got them into the situation in the first place.   This is the whole key to detox and recovery with Subs.   It's very simple, really.  The patient has a life-threatening condition in a state of remission.  Take this time to work on your problems and when you taper off Subs it won't be hard.  This is where Subs get a bad rap - people don't get that its not s miracle silver bullet.   You have to do some work to get past your problems and then tapering will work.  While in remission adopt a therapist who actually knows something about addiction and you actually have a shot at true life-long sobriety.  Often people just take the meds, stabilize, detox, and wonder why they relapse.Then they blame the meds and say Subs suck.   If the patient is serious and truly wants out they see a therapist or AA/NA and viola! It's like magic.  The taper process works and there is minimal discomfort.   Yes, mild symptoms persist for a while, but you get your life back.

 

So, having done both, methadone for years and Sub for years there is no comparison.   I learned the hard way that on a methadone program I was treated like a criminal in a penal system and not one time did anyone on the program suggest I stop using the meds.  I was thrown off that program for using and referred to a Sub program.  I was amazed.   First, it took me a good two weeks to get the 'done out of my bones and skeletal muscle tissues but once finally stabilized I was fine.  No W/D, cravings and I felt nothing if I tried to use.  I started with a shrink, then a therapist then on to AA.  I had so much baggage to get rid of but once I did I was just like a diabetic taking insulin every day.  No ups or downs, so I was able to taper easily.   For most people it goes easily down to 2mg then it gets a little tougher but nothing like real opiate withdrawal.

 

I hope my story helps someone make good decisions about recovery and sobriety.

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Posted

For me Suboxone was a living Hell. Started out great after taking the big O20 for 11 years, I thought I'll never live thru the wds but the sub made it easy. Then as I started weaning from the subs, I wanted to die. Things are better now but be careful with the fore mentioned. Just my experience & no not trying to up my post count. Being a newbie and doing nothing but reading, I'm half scared to post in case I say something wrong.

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Posted

For me Suboxone was a living Hell. Started out great after taking the big O20 for 11 years, I thought I'll never live thru the wds but the sub made it easy. Then as I started weaning from the subs, I wanted to die. Things are better now but be careful with the fore mentioned. Just my experience & no not trying to up my post count. Being a newbie and doing nothing but reading, I'm half scared to post in case I say something wrong.

In all sincerity, I'm very sorry that you feel way. The last thing that I would want to foster is a sense of fear to contribute within the community.

Know that you are most welcome here at DBG, and that I will take your comments under advisement.

Jewy

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Posted

For me Suboxone was a living Hell. Started out great after taking the big O20 for 11 years, I thought I'll never live thru the wds but the sub made it easy. Then as I started weaning from the subs, I wanted to die. Things are better now but be careful with the fore mentioned. Just my experience & no not trying to up my post count. Being a newbie and doing nothing but reading, I'm half scared to post in case I say something wrong.

That just goes to show how things have different effects on people I suppose. I think I've already mentioned it but my nephew was an eye v addict who was able to get clean through subs. Probably about 6 months if I remember right. Now a GF is on them, having switched from the MD clinic. They started her on 4 x 4 mg for two weeks and now down to 3 x 4. I'm pretty sure her program is designed to be clean in 6 months too. So far it seems to be working, but having a court order to be clean or go to jail is also a big incentive.

 

Db, what makes you say you're scared to post in case you say something wrong? I've had only one uncomfortable situation in my experience here, and that was person to person which was quickly cleared up when I apologized. I've never had a fear of posting something "wrong". I have seen people ragged for posting something, but the truth was they really deserved it. As long as it's your opinion you shouldn't worry, there's no such thing as a wrong post in that case. And I've posted plenty of stupid stuff so I speak from experience. 99% of the time it's either ignored or someone will politely point out the error in my ways. Don't be afraid to post, it's what the forum is here for.

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Posted

If you've been taking subs for a long time than the withdrawals will last a while but won't be as intense as withdrawaling from perks. Perks/Ox will 3 to 5 days, usually 3. If it were me I would taper down as much as you can from perks and take one sub a day to lessen the sympoms.

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Posted

I have kicked a 2.5 bundle h habit before and it was pretty bad for 5 days and sleep wasn't good for months my advice would be to just do it. I never locked oxies and h in jail even. you can do it and in a week you will feel ok.

I made mistake last time of starting methadone.. that was in 2005 and getting off this crap is a million times harder. I want of those crap so bad.

Good luck

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Posted

Thanks for the input all. It seems that most who have used done for a while knows it's harder to kick than most other things. I guess what helped her was my med, more~feen, which has a low BA but it kept her from having to go straight from done to subs. I just posted on another thread that she is doing well, and I'm not having to give half my stuff to her. Except the s0m@, they don't eff up her UAs and help a lot with the stress, much like bz products except it isn't detected.

 

I hope everyone who is struggling with control or WD is doing well. Wish you all the best, H~T

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Posted

Good thread. After getting off H many times over many years before subs existed - the stay home and suffer hot showers method, I have a pretty strong view of subs as a miracle drug. I have seen that coming off subs is drastically different for everyone I have known. It seems common that long term use (1-2 years) of them ends with a worse WD and that WD tends to be more mental with anxiety than physical discomfort. But others have told me it was bad for them even after a shorter time like 6 months. I found I could get off the H with two sub 8's a day and then quickly (1 month) taper down to just 2mg per day and then stop - just needing something like Trazedone for sleep for a couple weeks.

 

On a side note - There's a lot of new really really interesting drugs coming out for addiction recovery (as well as depression and depression from quitting dope). Google vivitrol and ALKS5461 

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I am not a doctor, chemist or pharmaceutical employee so the following is just my opinion:

 

IMHO ALKS5461 could revolutionize the recovery industry.  It combines bupe and an additional molecule that prevents bupe from binding to the brain's receptors.   this could deal with the biggest drawback of bupe treatment - how to get off the stuff.   

 

Keep in mind that bupe only blocks other opiates and sends a mild signal of its own to minimize cravings and eliminate withdrawal putting the patient in remission.  This new drug has properties of its own that are expected to deal with certain forms of depression, anxiety/panic and chronic-pain.  In combination with the appropriate therapy (PT, psych, etc) patients could become drug-free.

 

The biggest glitch with bupe is how to get off the stuff.  There are volumes written on how to induce, start, initiate bupe treatment, but not one official authoritative protocol (that I can find) for getting off the stuff.  ALKS5461 prevents bupe from binding to the mu receptors in the first place making the mild euphoria and later psychological dependence unlikely.   Of course none of this will work without ultimately treating the underlying root causes of the problem (GAD, MDD, spinal injuries, etc.), but this med is supposedly a treatment that won't cause its own dependence and have true antidepressant properties.

 

This is all kinda speculative at this point because the drug is still in clinical trials, but they look promising.

 

I personally am not a fan of Vivitrol because of those I know who reacted badly to it, but this is just MHO.   Vivitrol is simply a long-acting (monthly) injectible form of Naltrexone, a full opiate ANtagonist which physically prevents patients from relapsing.    Naltrexone is one of the options used when a patient is brought to the ER overdosing on opiates.

 

Very interesting developments, however!

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Posted

The best cure for opiate withdraw IMHO is medical marijuana. I often force myself to quit opiates just to get my tolerance down and using mmj makes it a fairly painless process every time. I wake up and eat a cannabis infused cereal bar for breakfast along with a couple bowls of bud. The cereal bar puts me at ease for the entire day and I smoke here and there whenever I get the craving.

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Posted

I am not a doctor, chemist or pharmaceutical employee so the following is just my opinion:

 

IMHO ALKS5461 could revolutionize the recovery industry.  It combines bupe and an additional molecule that prevents bupe from binding to the brain's receptors.   this could deal with the biggest drawback of bupe treatment - how to get off the stuff.   

 

Keep in mind that bupe only blocks other opiates and sends a mild signal of its own to minimize cravings and eliminate withdrawal putting the patient in remission.  This new drug has properties of its own that are expected to deal with certain forms of depression, anxiety/panic and chronic-pain.  In combination with the appropriate therapy (PT, psych, etc) patients could become drug-free.

 

The biggest glitch with bupe is how to get off the stuff.  There are volumes written on how to induce, start, initiate bupe treatment, but not one official authoritative protocol (that I can find) for getting off the stuff.  ALKS5461 prevents bupe from binding to the mu receptors in the first place making the mild euphoria and later psychological dependence unlikely.   Of course none of this will work without ultimately treating the underlying root causes of the problem (GAD, MDD, spinal injuries, etc.), but this med is supposedly a treatment that won't cause its own dependence and have true antidepressant properties.

 

This is all kinda speculative at this point because the drug is still in clinical trials, but they look promising.

 

I personally am not a fan of Vivitrol because of those I know who reacted badly to it, but this is just MHO.   Vivitrol is simply a long-acting (monthly) injectible form of Naltrexone, a full opiate ANtagonist which physically prevents patients from relapsing.    Naltrexone is one of the options used when a patient is brought to the ER overdosing on opiates.

 

Very interesting developments, however!

A friend was going to a 'done clinic that took her from "getting by" with 30 mg of more~feen, and being really good on 100 to taking 240 mg of 'done in just a few months. She had to quit the clinic due to a court order, and had to come back to me for help with WD. She had tried going straight from 'done to subs and she couldn't do it but it seemed that with the feen easing her down she made the transition a lot better. Of course this is just one persons reaction and others may feel differently. I was surprised I could help her at all given the fact that orally the feen only has a BA of around 30% to 40%, and the amount I could offer was only half what she was getting in 'done, which has a much greater BA from what I gather. She wasn't really "happy", but she was able to avoid the 'done WD to a great extent.

 

I also know my nephew was using eye V, most likely oh seas or oh sea eye are, and he successfully used subs to clean up. He told me it that it enhanced  mj incredibly, so mixing the two he was able to taper off the subs pretty quick. IDK how, but he was able to disguise his mj use with plenty of liquids, and they never complained about the color. 

 

But using subs to get off harder stuff seems to work best in a rapid taper as opposed to using them for a long time and very slowly tapering. That's just my opinion based on what I've seen in other people, I can't say personally as I've never used them myself. 

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Posted

@High Tide,

 

Interesting what happened with your friend and I hope she is doing well.

 

It is fairly common knowledge that inducing to Sub from high dose long-acting agonists like OC/OP or Mdone require extended time in withdrawal to prevent precipitated withdrawal as well as significant reduction in dosage to successfully induce without continued withdrawal even at Sub;s ceiling dose.   

 

It is also common knowledge that by adding a step in between mdone treatment and sub induction can pay off big time.   By first transitioning from a long-acting opiate agonist such as mdone to a short-acting one such as IR oxee, or more pheen, regardless of  bioavailability in a controlled environment will absolutely improve the success probability of induction and quick stability on Sub.

 

There are documented protocols for such a transition but it is not legal for a physician to prescribe such a protocol strictly for medication-assisted opiate addiction treatment so you would need to do a bit of research and make sure you are confident in the credibility of the protocol.

 

I hope this is helpful in some way.  If not, feel free to PM me as I may be able to offer more information not suitable for posting.

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Posted

 

done is harder to get off than subs, im going threw that nightmare right now managed to get down to 65ml of juice from 100ml over a few months but im going into withdrawal every morning until i get to chemist.

when i was only on the subs 5year ago i didnt really find it that hard of a reduction just ate a hell of alot of vlum and got really stoned took my mind of things.
ive never had problem with perks you dont really see much of them in the UK.

 

how much sub and how long were you on it. Never heard of antone able to taper off of a maintenence (at least year) of sub use?

thanks

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